Plokhy Interview_Collapse of the Soviet Union
Introduction
The following is what I extracted from a section of the interview between Serhii Plokhy and Lex Fridman, covering the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Collapse of the Soviet Union
Key Reasons for the Collapse
What were the main reasons behind the collapse of the Soviet Union?
Answer:
The dissolution of the Soviet Union is often misunderstood as a single event, but it actually involves three distinct, though interconnected, processes:
- The collapse of communist ideology.
- The end of the Cold War.
- The disintegration of the Soviet Union itself.
While these events are interrelated, it's a misconception to assume that the failure of communism directly caused the Soviet Union to split into multiple independent countries. Although communism failed throughout the USSR, which also lost the Cold War, this does not fully explain the disintegration of the Soviet state. According to Serhii Plokhy, the primary reasons include: - Mobilization from Below: The rise of national movements and local demands for independence.
- Collapse of the Center: The weakening of central Soviet authority.
- Economic Collapse and Ideological Implosion: These factors intensified the overall disintegration.
Most Significant Factor in the Collapse
Which of these factors do you consider the most important?
Answer:
The collapse of the Soviet Union can be seen primarily as the fall of an empire, a phenomenon that shares common traits with the collapses of other empires throughout history. This imperial decline is still evident today, particularly in the ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine. To understand why the USSR was indeed an empire, one only needs to consider its vast size—occupying one-sixth of the earth’s land surface. Such territorial expansion was achieved through imperial means.
Mr. Plokhy also argues that the disintegration of the Soviet Union can be traced back to 1917, with the fall of the Russian Empire, temporarily halted by the Bolsheviks. However, by the late 1980s and early 1990s, the forces of disintegration reemerged with greater intensity, driven by nationalist movements. Notably, Russian nationalism proved to be just as destabilizing as the local nationalist movements.
The Role of the United States
Was the United States one factor contributing to the collapse, given their incentive to weaken the Soviet Union?
Answer:
No, the US had no desire for the breakup, as they were concerned about the potential instability it could bring (Yugoslavia with nukes). In fact, under Gorbachev, the Soviet Union was starting to resemble something of a junior partner to the US. President Bush even encouraged Ukraine to remain part of the Soviet Union in his "Chicken Kyiv Speech."
Alternative history where Gorbachev succeeded:
Can you imagine that there is a scenario in which Gorbachev had managed to prevent the Soviet Union's collapse and his reforms had taken hold?
Answer:
The Soviet Union could have survived his tenure, but its eventual collapse was inevitable due to the broader trends and factors at play during that period.
Nature of Empires:
You wrote a book describing the fall of the Soviet Union as the fall of the Last Empire. Is there something fundamental about the world that goes against empires.
Answer:
When I described the Soviet Union as the "last empire," I was referring to its role as the final major European empire, following a tradition of empires that had existed from the 18th through the 20th centuries. The Soviet Union, as the successor to the Russian Empire, was the last of these traditional empires. The Austro-Hungarian Empire had collapsed during World War I, the Ottoman Empire had disintegrated, and the British Empire had withdrawn from India.
By 1991, with the Soviet Union’s collapse, a significant transformation occurred. Today’s Russia has evolved into what can be considered a post-imperial state. This means it has moved beyond the characteristics of a traditional empire and has restructured its political and administrative systems to reflect a new era. Key changes include:
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No National Republics with Greater Authority: Unlike the Soviet Union, which had national republics with substantial autonomy, the Russian Federation now has a system where its constituent units do not have more power than the central administrative divisions.
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Revised Nationality Policies: Russia has updated its policies on nationalities to promote greater integration and reduce regional autonomy.
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Increased Russification: The level of Russification has risen, exemplified by practices such as appointing "parachute governors"—officials sent from outside regions to ensure central control and uniformity (Parachute governors).
In summary, as a post-imperial state, Russia has redefined itself by centralizing authority and integrating its diverse regions more closely into a unified national framework.
Ukraine's Role:
Can you describe Ukraine's role in the imperial collapse?
Answer:
First of all it's important to keep track of the chronology of the collapse. On the first of September 1991 the Ukrainian public decided to be independent via referendum. One week later Russia, Belarus and Ukraine signed a treaty formally disbanding the Soviet Union. This happened for several reasons:
- Russia knew it would be outvoted by the Muslim republics, without Ukraine.
- Ukraine was the second largest soviet republic (in most metrics)
- Without Ukraine, the continuation of the Soviet project lost its purpose, as it would no longer secure territorial integrity and would be financially unsustainable—a burden Russia could no longer afford.
This also helps explain Russia's current war of aggression towards Ukraine. Vladimir Putin wants to revive the Russian Empire (more sources on this in Sources) and for that he needs Ukrainian territory.
Biggest geopolitical catastrophe of the century?:
What do you think about Vladimir Putin's remark about the collapse of the Soviet Union being the "biggest geopolitical catastrophe of the century"?
Answer:
Mr. Plokhy analyzed the context of Putin's statement, which was made shortly before the May 9th celebrations in Russia, and found it intriguing that Putin identified the Soviet collapse as the "biggest geopolitical catastrophe" rather than World War II. Plokhy suggests that Putin is more concerned with the state's power and territorial loss than with human suffering. From this perspective, while Russia expanded its influence over half of Europe after World War II, it lost significant territory and imperial integrity following the Soviet collapse.